In May 2017, the state of Russia banned the religion and practice of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Church of Scientology is being faced with the same kind of ban in Russia. This is a controversial subject because many in the anti-Scientology community feel this is a good and just action. In this video, former Jehovah’s Witness and anti-cult activist Lloyd Evans and I discuss why this is a terrible idea and what some of the consequences have already been for JWs in Russia under this new ban.
Should Scientology Be Banned ft. Lloyd Evans
Chris,
Great job on today’s video. I agree with the conclusions — freedom of thought is more important than finding a way to get government to stamp out groups we don’t like, no matter how much they deserve extinction. There are other ways to end abusive cults than bringing in government; exposing the JW’s for what they are and demanding that they be held accountable for criminal behaviors that they engage in (not what they believe). And I particularly like the point that cults like being victims, and that banning the JW’s in Russia doesn’t affect the organization as a whole…
It is obvious from your discussion that you two have a Western mindset, and you Chris have an American mindset, vs. a Russian mindset. Former National Security Advisor Brent Scowcroft once questioned whether Russians were really European or Asians with a European veneer. His reasoning was that while the rest of Europe dealt with the Reformation, the Enlightenment and liberal democracy, Russian bypassed all this.
The result: In the West, the government answers to the people, separation of Church and State, the individual is more important than the group. In Russia, the people answer to the czar, there is no real separation between Church and State, and the group is more important than the individual.
To clarify: the czars have ruled Russia and the Orthodox Church was the state church. When communism came the czars were replaced by the Communist rulers (Lenin, Stalin, etc.) who nevertheless ruled as the czars of old, and Communism became the new state religion. Now Putin is the new uncrowned czar and the Orthodox Church is the de facto, if not the official, state church again. With such a mindset, it is the group that must be protected from aberrant individuals. If those individuals are silenced either by being cowed, imprisoned, deported or killed, then the goal of protecting the group has been achieved. No real time and effort is taken to see what these individuals believe, why they believe it, can they be persuaded to change their minds, and will this new belief, ideology, religion, etc. will fall under its own weight.
Unity between State and Church has been the norm since time immemorable, and by all rights the state church of the United States, since it was an English colony, should have been the Anglican Church. When the Founding Fathers introduced separation of Church and State and freedom of religion, this was unheard of. Why did they do this? Was it because they thought it was a great idea? No. It was because there were too many Protestants of too many stripes holding sway in different parts of the country to ever have one state church. Separation of Church and State along with freedom of religion eliminated the problems Europe faced after the Reformation. Separation of Church and State with freedom of religion proved to be a surprising success. The US proved that a nation can exist without an official Church, and people can be both more religious, because they choose to believe what they believe, and also loyal citizens. In the US we can take the time to challenge individuals’ beliefs, persuade each other and see if a belief system will stand the test of time or fall under its own weight.
Of course I have a Western/American mindset. What else would I have? I was born, raised and live in the West and have my entire life. Thanks for the breakdown on the Russian/Eastern point of view. I was aware that there were vast differences of this kind between the cultures but I appreciate you taking the time to break it down. I will stick with my Western/US attitude and mindset because I believe (in what I acknowledge is a completely biased manner) that our way is better than the “group is all and the individual is nothing” view of the Eastern cultures.
But in the West do we not at times go overboard to the point where “the individual is everything and the group is nothing”?
Of course we do. All the time. But our cultural view in the West is not that the individual is everything and the group is nothing. I got from what you were saying that you wanted me to understand that in the East, it is the prevalent view that the group is everything and the individual is nothing. Was I mistaken?
I would say that the Eastern view vs. the Western view is a matter of degree than absolute. In other words, in the East it is not the group is everything and the individual is nothing, but when push come to shove the individual takes a backseat to the group, while in the West the expectation is the group takes a backseat to the individual. Push either too far and society breaks down.
Group everything, individual nothing. We saw what happens with this last century with Communism and Fascism. Individual everything, group nothing. Unfortunately, we are seeing the bad part of this in the US. In an interview John Brennan, former CIA director, worried that Americans are losing the common narrative of what it means to be an American. Michael Gerson, a conservative columnist, wrote in one of his columns that although the right glorifies the individual, you still need to see yourself as a member of the whole to have a functioning society.
True enough. I still don’t think that Lloyd and I “missed” on the point of basic human rights in terms of freedom of thought, belief and religion. There are eight countries which abstained from signing on to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Byelorussian SSR (Byelorussia), Czechoslovakia, Poland, Saudi Arabia, Soviet Union, Ukrainian SSR (Ukraine), Union of South Africa and Yugoslavia). Clearly there is an issue in Eastern countries with the entire concept of human rights. As far as my Western eyes see it, everyone is entitled to these basic human rights regardless of whether their government chooses to recognize them or not. That is my position in this video, I do not believe it is a uniquely “Western” idea and I stand by every word I said.
Without the individual, there isn’t any group…take a group, remove the individuals, what are you left with? chairs… lots and lots of chairs
Chris Shelton threw me out of this group “Supporters of “Leah Remini: Scientology & the Aftermath” because I posted this reply when he implied that I’m a fool for having a different viewpoint to his. He clearly still has that CULT MENTALITY! People with opinions that differ to his own will not be tolerated, and will be SHUNNED! I will be sharing this post hundreds of times with the information about his INTOLERANCE, and that he practices SHUNNING! He said to me immediately before banning me, that he will not tolerate anyone replying to him in this manner:
Chris Shelton already knows that only a fraction of a percent of Jehovah’s Witness pedophiles are prosecuted, and that’s only because the victim actually disobeyed the elder’s direction and went to the police, yet he thinks me foolish because I believe the Watchtower Society should be held responsible for covering up literally tens of thousands of cases of child abuse by Jehovah’s Witnesses!
These pedophiles get away with their crimes BECAUSE of Watchtower Society’s TWO WITNESS RULE, which means that if a child is sexually abused or a woman is raped by a Jehovah’s Witness there must be two witnesses present to see the crime–now tell me, how often does that happen???
As it is only the victim and perpetrator who are present during these heinous crimes, the perpetrator only needs to deny the crime, and the elders take him at is word! And they also put pressure on the victim not to report the crime to the police!
SO, DO I THINK A CULT SHOULD BE BANNED WHEN IT GIVES 100% SANCTUARY TO PRACTICING PEDOPHILES? YES I DO! The welfare of the children is more important than religious freedom!
I’m posting your comment here because I want you to understand that the reason you were booted (by me) from the Supporters group had nothing to do with your views about the Watchtower or the fact that you could disagree with me. I am disagreed with all the time. The reason you were booted is because right out of the gate, with no introduction or forewarning, you were personally insulting to me and my guest (Lloyd Evans). I don’t know why it is that you feel this is acceptable behavior, but it’s not. If you have a point to make to me, then make your point. Making your point after insulting me and my guest nullifies your entire comment and makes you look like an ass. If you would like to enlighten me on something I don’t know, I’m all ears. If you want to just castigate me and my views, I’m wholly uninterested.
I saw the interaction. You were not booted because of what you believe, or what you said. You were booted because you were disrespectful to him as a person. You were booted for how you expressed your views while trying to vilify him for his. WTH! You were being a dick. That is inappropriate behavior in any circle, IRL or online. You were warned and you chose to go ahead anyway. That’s on you bud.
Also, Jehovah’s Witnesses as well as anyone else who break the law, do not get away with it because of a two witness rule, the crimes go unreported and that’s why they are not prosecuted. That too is a crime. Please understand what you are talking about before you open your mouth to embarrass yourself.
This question was really answered thousands of years ago when Socrates was ordered to take poison for speaking to the young people in the polis. Banning violates human rights. Education is the proper action. At least unless crimes are being committed against others.
Chris, Thanks for your well-done blog. I accessed it via the “Supporters of Leah Remini” FB page. As an ex-JW, I was initially quite happy at the thought of JWs being banned in Russia. However, you and Lloyd gave me much to critically consider. I’ve realized it’s disingenuous to believe I should be allowed religious freedom, but that others (however misguided) shouldn’t. As a mainline Christian Jesus-follower, I often follow the stories of martyred Christians around the world via an organization called Voice of the Martyrs and am outraged about people of my belief system being killed for their faith. However, how fair is it of me to not be equally outraged when others are also persecuted? I’m pleased to find common ground with you as a believing atheist. Thank you again.
Great! Thank you and I’m glad we have common ground too.